Curse

Paul Dawg · Aug 12, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

OK, that makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

I did try [ward of weakness] but with two curse necros with [enfeebling blood] I didn't think it was needed. As for [ward against elements] I figured it couldn't hurt but I'm still testing it out.

daze · Aug 12, 2008, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Just wondering Would it be a good idea to throw in [ward of weakness] to the ele build? That way your ele's purpose could be to spread conditions and hexes...
Or maybe give the ele [epidemic] or [hypochondria]

*edit*whoops didnt get a chance to read all the way to the end of the thread. i guess someone already brought up [ward of weakness]

*edit2* now that i have read the whole thread i notice that [epidemic] and [hypochondria] was suggested. However i didn't see anybody's thoughts on it. I would assume that it would be valuable since it would ensure a good spread of conditions to all enemies in the field.

distilledwill · Aug 12, 2008, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Like I said, you can reduce the need for healing by bringing another MM and I have done that to Sab's build myself, Dwayna's on more minions can cover most of it. But that increases your reliance on corpses.

Im not sure what you're getting at as if you actually check the 6 man build that I put up there, there is already 2 MMs there. However, taking your advice about healing into consideration I've decided to change the 2 MM builds for these:

[build prof=N/Mo box Death=12+1+3 Soul=8+1 Prot=10][Discord][Animate Shambling Horror][Death Nova][Feast For The Dead][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Reverse Hex][Signet Of Lost Souls][/build]

[build prof=N/Mo box Death=12+1+3 soul=8+1 Heal=10][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Cure Hex][Patient Spirit][Signet Of Lost Souls][/build]

My theory here is that the longer downtime from shambling horror allows the hero to spam discord a bit more, and apply death nova to their own horrors and the other heroes bone minions and maintain prot spirit on any allies taking damage. This lets me take Death nova from the second MM and replace it with [[patient spirit] to assist healing.

Paul Dawg · Aug 12, 2008, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Well, since I'm the dude who mentioned it, you can tell my opinion (it works), but people need to try it out for themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

now that i have read the whole thread i notice that [epidemic] and [hypochondria] was suggested. However i didn't see anybody's thoughts on it. I would assume that it would be valuable since it would ensure a good spread of conditions to all enemies in the field.

DarkSpirit · Aug 12, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

*edit2* now that i have read the whole thread i notice that [epidemic] and [hypochondria] was suggested. However i didn't see anybody's thoughts on it. I would assume that it would be valuable since it would ensure a good spread of conditions to all enemies in the field.

I have not tested this after the recent AI update but before, the hero's usage of [epidemic] was terrible. It works sometimes but only by chance.

It seems the AI cannot tell how many enemies (if any) are adjacent to your target before using this, so heroes used it quite randomly even when there were no enemies beside the target at all. Mark of Pain has the same issue, so I am not a fan of skills that only affect adjacent targets but not the target itself, for heroes.

But let me know if it works well now with the new AI.

Edit: I have incorporated some of the comments from this thread into my own 6-heroes Discord build.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/User:Dar...s_Discord_Spam

Paul Dawg · Aug 16, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

I think you really need to have [splinter weapon] SOMEWHERE on your six-hero team. It makes a big difference. (I tend to find that team builds based on [discord] tend to overemphasize condition-and-hex-spamming while forgetting about some of the other things that a team needs to be successful.) I'm also not a big fan of putting [dwayna's sorrow] on the same bar as the MM with all his prot skills, because you have to have a fair amount of spec in healing for [dwayna's sorrow] to be useful.

As for [epidemic], it's odd: I've heard many people make the same complaint, but it works fine for me. (You used to hear this a lot when people were making ranger heroes with [broad head arrow] and [epidemic]; everyone would complain that the hero misuses [epidemic]. But, again, I haven't seen that.) Could some other people weigh in with their experiences?

The downside of [mark of pain] is that it causes scattering because foes respond to it as an AoE spell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I have not tested this after the recent AI update but before, the hero's usage of [epidemic] was terrible. It works sometimes but only by chance.

It seems the AI cannot tell how many enemies (if any) are adjacent to your target before using this, so heroes used it quite randomly even when there were no enemies beside the target at all. Mark of Pain has the same issue, so I am not a fan of skills that only affect adjacent targets but not the target itself, for heroes.

But let me know if it works well now with the new AI.

Edit: I have incorporated some of the comments from this thread into my own 6-heroes Discord build.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/User:Dar...s_Discord_Spam

MercenaryKnight · Aug 17, 2008, 05:36 AM // 05:36

For me personally, I tend to try and spread out skill use evenly (incase of having to split up for example g.o.l.e.m. mission). Pretty much making sure that theirs 1 healer for each human, and if it is gonna be a big time split 2 copies of bone minions. I really don't see too much use for jagged bones, I understand that it gives another bleeding minion but I would rather have the extra fire power for a boss or big monster.

Having a necro/ele with ward against melee and churning earth seems decent, don't like the idea of ash blast or stoning though. Seems like too short of a recharge and would neglect the utility portion of it.

Also, for his pvx setup I don't see a reason for the n/e to bring discord as the elite. Should just sacrifice the discord for an earth elite or maybe change that one into the soul bind so that way the soul bind previous could bring discord and not have to spread attributes so much.

snaek · Aug 17, 2008, 05:42 AM // 05:42

too lazy to read whole thread, but....

how bout [icy veins] as spike caller?

DarkSpirit · Aug 17, 2008, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

For me personally, I tend to try and spread out skill use evenly (incase of having to split up for example g.o.l.e.m. mission). Pretty much making sure that theirs 1 healer for each human, and if it is gonna be a big time split 2 copies of bone minions. I really don't see too much use for jagged bones, I understand that it gives another bleeding minion but I would rather have the extra fire power for a boss or big monster.

Jagged is more useful for giving a second life to your minions than for bleeding, especially if you run out of corpses. But between Jagged Bones and Discord on a MM, I can go either way.

Quote:

Having a necro/ele with ward against melee and churning earth seems decent, don't like the idea of ash blast or stoning though. Seems like too short of a recharge and would neglect the utility portion of it.

Stoning is for synergy with weakness. Maybe I should replace Ash Blast with [[Eruption]? It is nice to have blind in there.

Quote:

Also, for his pvx setup I don't see a reason for the n/e to bring discord as the elite. Should just sacrifice the discord for an earth elite or maybe change that one into the soul bind so that way the soul bind previous could bring discord and not have to spread attributes so much.

Yes I am also thinking of that. Maybe replace Discord with [[Unsteady Ground]? I would only have 3 necros with Discord, if I do that.

I have changed the Curse necro to use [[Soul Bind] instead of Discord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I think you really need to have [splinter weapon] SOMEWHERE on your six-hero team. It makes a big difference. (I tend to find that team builds based on [discord] tend to overemphasize condition-and-hex-spamming while forgetting about some of the other things that a team needs to be successful.) I'm also not a big fan of putting [dwayna's sorrow] on the same bar as the MM with all his prot skills, because you have to have a fair amount of spec in healing for [dwayna's sorrow] to be useful.

As for [epidemic], it's odd: I've heard many people make the same complaint, but it works fine for me. (You used to hear this a lot when people were making ranger heroes with [broad head arrow] and [epidemic]; everyone would complain that the hero misuses [epidemic]. But, again, I haven't seen that.) Could some other people weigh in with their experiences?

I have Splinter in there. Epidemic on heroes depends on your luck because heroes cannot tell how many monsters are adjacent (i.e. shoulder-to-shoulder range) to your target, if any, before using it. I can choose better targets with MoP or Epidemic than they can. Dwayna Sorrow doesn't need high healing since bone minions die easily. Mark of Pain doesn't disperse as much as you think, it still works very well.

No Dispersal here
No Dispersal here either

MercenaryKnight · Aug 17, 2008, 06:57 AM // 06:57

[build=OAhkUoG4BKqTMzOgI2dYMvJAoqC]
[build=OANDUshvSxMVBoBJgLC1DBEVVA]
[build=OANDUqhNTxMNgbEGNQgTfAAVVA] (yes was taken from the beginning of thread)

These are 3 out of the 6 heroes that I usually run with my partner. She brings a curse n/rt with suffering and weaken armor. Most likely bring another copy of minions/ death nova perhaps if it's an area where any split is needed or if there is a lot of usable corpses. Then a life spirit n/rt healer all with discord.

I am just trying to figure out if I should change it around or if infuse condition/ foulfeast is going to be worth it. Takes up a lot of space which i'm sure could be put to better use and having her 2 n/rts with mend body and soul and life spirit could get rid of conditions easily. I just don't know quite yet what to improve upon or what utilities her minion bomber should bring.

Also have to figure out where to make the improvements or if I should just replace my n/mo with another n/rt healer. I just seem to feel like the n/rt lacks some of the power because they all drop their ashes too quickly and if spirits are gone they sacrifice for their big heal. The n/mo for the most part can cover the majority of single heals.

I am almost not sure if splinter's weapon will be worth it. I know I sometimes use my save yourselves build and could easily take advantage of it being cast, but generally it doesn't do much good and is over ridden by weapon of warding since i'm usually the one being focused on when all my allies have +100al.

DarkSpirit · Aug 17, 2008, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

These are 3 out of the 6 heroes that I usually run with my partner. She brings a curse n/rt with suffering and weaken armor. Most likely bring another copy of minions/ death nova perhaps if it's an area where any split is needed or if there is a lot of usable corpses. Then a life spirit n/rt healer all with discord.

I used to have my build as Foul Feast+Infuse Condition, then I realize how much more minion-dependent I have made the build to be. Such issues are subjective, but I didn't want my build to rely too much on corpses being abundant to be effective. If infuse is not up or if minions die off due to strong AoE attacks, or if you enter an area with Djinns, your MM is going to be stuck with all conditions.

Quote:

I am just trying to figure out if I should change it around or if infuse condition/ foulfeast is going to be worth it. Takes up a lot of space which i'm sure could be put to better use and having her 2 n/rts with mend body and soul and life spirit could get rid of conditions easily. I just don't know quite yet what to improve upon or what utilities her minion bomber should bring.

Also have to figure out where to make the improvements or if I should just replace my n/mo with another n/rt healer. I just seem to feel like the n/rt lacks some of the power because they all drop their ashes too quickly and if spirits are gone they sacrifice for their big heal. The n/mo for the most part can cover the majority of single heals.

For straight-up heals, I experimented and found that a restoration N/Rt is more effective than a healing N/Mo, possibly due to the lack of divine favor. But the /mo line does have some good protection spells and hex removal. This means if I use /mo, I would go protection and/or hex removal. For heals, I would use /rt.

On my 6-heroes build, I have at least 2 spirits. Life only lasts for 20s tops, Recovery lasts quite abit longer. Recuperation also lasts longer than Life if you can live with the 25e upfront cost.

Quote:

I am almost not sure if splinter's weapon will be worth it. I know I sometimes use my save yourselves build and could easily take advantage of it being cast, but generally it doesn't do much good and is over ridden by weapon of warding since i'm usually the one being focused on when all my allies have +100al.

Splinter is worth it if you have at least 3 to 4 physical attackers in your party, otherwise it is not as useful for the cost of 10 attribute points. If Weapon of Warding is overriding it too often, I would replace it with a non-weapon spell.

The other thing about Splinter and Ancestor's Rage is, they are most powerful from a primary rit with 14 to channeling, so if you can fit a Rit in your team for that with enough energy management, and if you have enough physical attackers, they are awesome additions.

Washi · Aug 17, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

OK this is what I'm using now, it works alot better than the first build:

[build prof=N/Rt pve name="Resto 1" box death=10+1+1 soul=9+1 resto=11 curses=4][Discord][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Signet of Lost Souls][Life][defile flesh][death pact signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt pve name="Resto 2" box death=10+1+1 soul=9+1 resto=11 curses=4][Discord][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Signet of Lost Souls][Recovery][enfeebling blood][death pact signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt pve name="Resto 3" box death=10+1+1 soul=9+1 resto=11 curses=4][Discord][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Signet of Lost Souls][rip enchantment][weaken armor][death pact signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt pve name="Channeling" box death=11+1+1 soul=10+1 chann=10][Discord][splinter weapon][Death Nova][warmonger's weapon][Signet of Lost Souls][bloodsong][painful bond][death pact signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo pve name="MM" box death=12+1+3 soul=10+1 heal=8][Discord][Animate Bone Minions][Blood of the Master][Putrid Bile][Signet of Lost Souls][Dwaynas sorrow][cure hex][resurrection signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo pve name="Divert" box soul=10+1+1 prot=12 curse=8][Divert hexes][aegis][protective spirit][Signet of Lost Souls][vocal minority][rip enchantment][envenom enchantments][resurrection signet][/build]

I keep Warmongers disabled and throw it on myself when I need to kill some healer or a dangerous caster. I didn't take Ancestors cause it's not armor ignoring.

I also disable prot spirit when I face mobs with Vocal Minority or Soothing Memories cause I need the energy for Divert.

Saraneth · Aug 18, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

Also do heroes chain aegis? Or will they go stupid and cast it in the same moment?

From what I'v seen, they chain aegis fairly well. They might just be a little slow on the reapplication depending on what they're doing at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Splinter is worth it if you have at least 3 to 4 physical attackers in your party, otherwise it is not as useful for the cost of 10 attribute points.

I'm inclined to agree. Discord's the main dmg of this team build and anything else is support. Splinter could be replaced with additional defensive skills.
I also noticed that your later build has Bloodsong and Painfulbond. I can see the usefulness of an such an aoe hex, but I don't know if I'd waste the spot if there's only one attacking spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

I'm glad that everyone's sharing their thoughts, but I have a specific question.
I put this build together mostly for DOA, since elite areas is the only thing that's left for me in this game (pve-wise). Considering this, I need powerful hex removals, and the regular ones are simply not enough.

Depending on the zone, you might have to take more hex/condition removal than you'd normally run. I'd also spread the extra removal over more than one hero, so one or two heroes don't have to maintain cleansing efforts longer than needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

I also disable prot spirit when I face mobs with Vocal Minority or Soothing Memories cause I need the energy for Divert.

If you're having nrg problems even with Sig of Lost Souls and Soul Reaping, I'd consider spreading out some of those higher nrg spells among my other necs.

Not sure that I would put rez on all 6 heroes + whatever the two player's bars might be. Most zones have rez shrines, and my experience with Save Yourselves leads me to believe that deaths are rather infrequent to begin with. If you insist on the multiple ressurection skills, then you might want to think about alternating a few of them to something outside of Death Pact Signet. DPS chains aren't pretty when enemies start scoring 2-3 kills for the price of one.

Tyla · Aug 18, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

@Washi:

I would honestly put some Weapon of Warding in there, and Death Nova on the MM.

MercenaryKnight · Aug 18, 2008, 01:03 AM // 01:03

The main pro about the n/mo is the hex removals. The spotless whatever and cure hex. With patient spirit and dwayna's kiss for heals. I still am kind of thinking about using 2 minions and death nova copies because I really do like the ability to split for harder missions without having to change builds around.

That's why I like to split up characters and make it even. An aoe hex and condition for my hero and her hero. But then when it comes time to add the utilities for when were together, I keep running dry on ideas.

Instead of the channeling I may just put 10 into earth and bring the eruption, churning earth, ward against melee. I am unsure though, it just seems like no matter what utilities I try to think of there really isn't much that I need.

Being a save yourselves spammer usually armor or spells (as long as it's not armor ignoring) are fine and under control. Not much else that could add for extra damage support because me being the only splinter candidate is usually fine.

I was just curious besides protective spirit and aegis what else is a useful protection spell for heroes to use. I was thinking maybe shield of absorption or I could spec a few points into heal and bring cure hex or something. Just trying to figure out if bringing a protect like that would help.

High Moral · Aug 18, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

I know its been stated before, and I tried it and could not decide how good it was...

If you are a MONK, is discord way to recommend?
What build?
I did try

Asassin Promis, Aegis, Dwaynes, Sorrow, Ice Imp, You move like a dwarf, combo. And I dono how much i actually helped.. More then you having then chasing my targets.

I do not think 3 discord Spikes down the target so fast as everyone thinks. Maybe 4 or more discord is needed.. I dont know?

MercenaryKnight · Aug 18, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Generally for any form of caster you can bring Assassin's Promise, You move like a dwarf, Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support and finish him. Anything extra you can add from your caster will help.

As long as theirs a condition and the hex anything else is optional. Those just seem to be the most utilities with knockdown from you move like a dwarf and if you time assassin support right after they get up it'll be another knockdown.

Washi · Aug 18, 2008, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

I also noticed that your later build has Bloodsong and Painfulbond. I can see the usefulness of an such an aoe hex, but I don't know if I'd waste the spot if there's only one attacking spirit.

Bloodsong is there just cause it's a spirit, I don't care what it does. It's cheap, lasts long and has a quick recharge. Painful bond is an aoe hex and I don't expect it to do more. You may think it's half-assed but I think it's better than spreading attributes for a better hex, and I don't see any more chanelling skills that I need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

Depending on the zone, you might have to take more hex/condition removal than you'd normally run. I'd also spread the extra removal over more than one hero, so one or two heroes don't have to maintain cleansing efforts longer than needed.

I tweak the build especially for DOA, hence the Divert monk. And currently 3 resto necros have condition removal so it's enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

If you're having nrg problems even with Sig of Lost Souls and Soul Reaping, I'd consider spreading out some of those higher nrg spells among my other necs.

Obviously he will have energy problems at some point if he's spamming 10e skills, and no, I won't spread the skills cause they need high Protection Prayers. I'm fine with micromanaging prot spirit when I need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

Not sure that I would put rez on all 6 heroes + whatever the two player's bars might be. Most zones have rez shrines, and my experience with Save Yourselves leads me to believe that deaths are rather infrequent to begin with. If you insist on the multiple ressurection skills, then you might want to think about alternating a few of them to something outside of Death Pact Signet. DPS chains aren't pretty when enemies start scoring 2-3 kills for the price of one.

I have 4 copies of DPS cause it's the best hard res, period. And I don't expect many deaths but I want every one of them to be able to res. Those 2 res signets are there cause I don't want to overload them with skills they don't really need, so signets are fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I would honestly put some Weapon of Warding in there, and Death Nova on the MM.

I intendedly put Death Nova on OTHER char than MM. If you read my OP you will know why. I was considering some defensive weapon spells but I hate when heros overwrite my splinter when I get hit for like 10 damage.

DarkSpirit · Aug 18, 2008, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

Bloodsong is there just cause it's a spirit, I don't care what it does. It's cheap, lasts long and has a quick recharge. Painful bond is an aoe hex and I don't expect it to do more. You may think it's half-assed but I think it's better than spreading attributes for a better hex, and I don't see any more chanelling skills that I need.

If you intend to go into channeling that much, you may as well bring a primary rit and use ancestor's rage too.

Quote:

I tweak the build especially for DOA, hence the Divert monk. And currently 3 resto necros have condition removal so it's enough.

Obviously he will have energy problems at some point if he's spamming 10e skills, and no, I won't spread the skills cause they need high Protection Prayers. I'm fine with micromanaging prot spirit when I need to.

Primary monk energy management sucks.

Quote:

I have 4 copies of DPS cause it's the best hard res, period. And I don't expect many deaths but I want every one of them to be able to res. Those 2 res signets are there cause I don't want to overload them with skills they don't really need, so signets are fine.

If you have to use res sigs, then you may as well not let them bring any res and replace these with more useful skills instead.

Washi · Aug 18, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

primary rit cant use discord and needs like 3 skills (including elite) to have decent e-management.

I dont know If you read my post cause it seems you didnt... primary monk? wtf are you talking about?

I dont want any more "useful skills" cause I dont see any that would help me, they would just burn energy and waste time.